Black Men's Xchange New York: February 2012

Friday Forum Recap

(BMX- NY Topic Hi- lites From Friday, February 3rd, 2012)

FREAKY-DIKY - DeCRIMINALIZING HOMO-SEX:

A Dialogue with Formerly Incarcerated Brothers

Facilitated by JM Green

In the latest BMX-NY dialogue forty-plus Brothers representing more than twenty geographic regions including: Ghana (West Africa), Cape Verde (West Africa), Brazil, Jamaica, Haiti, Montserrat, Michigan, Ohio, Tennessee, New Orleans, Missouri, Virgin Islands, Milwaukee, Barbados, Trinidad, South Carolina (Gullah Islands), Georgia, Jersey City, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Harlem considered our cross-cultural perspectives about each other through the following lenses:

Why is it that 99.9% of the time, whether they were in the lock-up for a few months or for a generation, Brothers don't acknowledge having had sex on the inside?

"It's stigmatized behavior societally and culturally...[SGL folk are] a society within a society...In someone who's out [in prison], everyone knows they're out...That's their journey...Inside, organized religions [which,] in many instances are gangs, engage in sex among their members...There are different ways of getting in...[They're] like secret societies...If you're not part of it, they can come down on you like a ton of bricks...In one prison [I was in] they were so entrenched, they had to take the stall door off the last bathroom stall...[In some instances a guy] was situationally gay...Black men don't talk about homo-sex outside of prison... "

"For the longest time I was attracted to people who were in jail...I worked for the Fortune Society and it changed my life..."

"There's a certain kind of Black man I've met...Heterosexual identified [who has said to me] 'The reason I'm trying to get with you is because you're the type who wouldn't tell...To be the receptive partner is okay [for them to have sex with]..."

"My uncles and neighbors who went to jail say they don't acknowledge having had sex with men because it messes up their money flow...They deal drugs...[and] their street credibility is lost if [they're] seen as having sex with other men..."

"When [I] saw men having sex in prison...I never saw rape take place...I heard...A lot of guys said it was situational, but there was emotion involved..."

"Everybody I know was in prison, and they talked...They disclosed [having had sex with men inside]...They talk..."

{Facilitator asks, "Are the men that you're talking about close intimates of yours?...That is, do you think they would disclose to people outside of your circle their sexual experiences in prison?..."} "No [they wouldn't]..."

"The COs were raping guys too...That was part of the culture at Attica...When you're in prison, a cigarette is [worth] a lot...Most of the sex I saw was consensual...The kaleidoscope of beautiful people that were in there was [endless]...People didn't have to force people...[Especially] if you were in good with the CO...He says, 'I don't care what you do as long as no paperwork comes out of it...'"

"You have to define yourself...I earned my respect because I say what I mean, and I mean what I say...People want to try you...You say, 'Okay'...Then you go in the John and duke it out and then they know...The whole Top, Bottom thing...A Bottom who never does anybody else's laundry...and they earned their respect...They weren't 'Bum Bitches'... and 'Slut Buckets'..."

"There are types of heterosexualities and types of homosexualities..."

"In my experience in the military, if someone is perceived as 'soft' they're going to be stepped on...If you let your guard down, you're gonna' be stepped on...[As an attorney] I represented a lot of people [in criminal cases] I kept them out [of jail] mostly..."

{Facilitator says, "Among issues we talk about here include that, a core part of the patriarchy we live in is misogyny...which gives us to devalue women and/or things and people feminine or female-like...It's a destructive tendency we need to be mindful of if we will be free..."}

Who determines what makes a man a man?

"I've heard younger Brothers define themselves by the label, 'Bottom'...I think it's sort of dehumanizing..."

"When I say I'm a Bottom, it's just what I like sexually...What makes you a man is owning up to what you do..."

"We inherit a lot of our definitions...You deviated from this Baptist definition of manhood [in defining yourself as SGL]... [You rejected the notion that] 'You're a fag'...We have a lot of preconceived baggage [to drop]...Everyone inherits the language of their predecessors...One of the things that distinguishes us from [other species] is our ability to speak...[To begin with] the language I use to define who I am came before me...[as part of] Our history and traditions...[Now] what is being, and honest, and true in my life [is that] because I love me, some [other] him doesn't make me a non-man...[And my definition of me] is what I leave for those who come behind me..."

"In many societies manliness was [defined as] the warrior...Even in this country with gangs and being in prison it's still the case...Any time we try to define man and woman outside the biological, you open the door to discrimination..."

"It's not biological...Responsibility makes a man a man or a woman a woman...There are plenty of people out there not taking care of theirs...They're not men...[They're] boys and girls..."

"To [fixate] on the attractiveness of incarcerated men, is to say, a young man going to an ivy league school doesn't look as good [as a prisoner]...Every time we look at someone [and see] strength, stamina, confidence or whatever we admire, it's something [we] are missing [within ourselves]...For me, for someone to honor someone, they have to recognize something [that person has] to honor...So, it's all in our heads...If, to you, responsibility is golden, then fine...[I] Find manhood in whatever moves me, touches me [about a man]...Then we are celebrating what one has instead of some [prescribed] vision..."

"I was told my responsibility as a man was to get married to a woman and fuck her and have children...Obviously that's not my responsibility as a man...[A lot of Black] Men are feeling emasculated as Black women are getting higher paid jobs...as if they're not measuring up...All Black men are having difficulty with defining Black manhood..."

"We determine what makes a man a man...I watched my father...[He was] head of the household...He never neglected any of us...None of my friends have fathers...I did everything by the book... Go to college... Everything he wanted me to do...Not what I wanted to do...The, finally I decided health was not my field...Fashion was...I don't look for validation from anyone [now...But, at the end of the day, I don't look at myself as a Black man, I look at myself as a strong Black woman..."

{Facilitator asks, "Do you feel as if you're a woman inside of a man's body?..."}

"Yes...But, I like my body...I mean I like looking like this...I like what people see when they look at me..."

Does desiring another Brother automatically make a man a non-man?

"[In prison among] out Brothers, one thing that would really, really piss 'em off...You could call 'em a 'homo'...'faggot'...They don't care...[If] You call them a 'chump'...then you got a problem..."

{Facilitator asks, "Is that because the term 'Chump' implies they're pushovers or that they have no power?..."}

"Yes...because then it's like you're saying that they're nothing...or that they have no choice, or no power..."

"I was watching a show about tigers in a circus...And the trainer would open the gate and the tigers came out in a line, and one time the female tiger came out before the male tiger, and that male tiger tore her to shreds...Because she had violated the natural order..."

"Regarding what makes a man a man...Being a man is more than having a penis...We're judged by our actions...Put us [both as Black men and as SGL men] against some one else, we're going to be judged more harshly..."

"If a man wants to treat himself as a commodity...Wants me to call him a bitch...use him, and spit on him, and throw him out like a can of Pepsi [it's going to be hard to see him as a man]...We have to get off of this White-valued vision of manhood..."

{Facilitator says, "We might also do well to consider why it is...that is, how one might come to consider himself a commodity, as you put it...What might have happened to him that he would be looking for someone to treat him like that?...It helps if we're thoughtful and regard each other as sensitively as we can...We're hard-put to facilitate each other's seeing ourselves differently if we're standing in judgment of each other..."}

"When infants are born they are assigned [a gender] based on their genitalia...Biology does not determine manhood...I was a sissy...I was condemned as the school sissy...I didn't like being the school sissy...I didn't have a father around...So I took bits and pieces of the other guys [to fashion my man-self]...Manhood is something that's very culturally determined...In most cultures there are rites of passage [to help male youths take on the traits their society deem as manly]..."

"We don't know why that male tiger attacked the female tiger...We posses the ability to reason, they possess instinct..."

"[Those of you who have been imprisoned] How did your definition of manhood change from having done a bid?..."

"I had to be more security-conscious because of the stigma...I had to be more aware of everything I did...I reinterpreted or redefined [manhood] for myself...For me, a man means mind...Mentality...It focused me...I didn't just think of it in terms of gender..."

Does love live among Brothers in prison? If not, what's there instead? If so, what happens to that love when they leave and come back to "the real world?"

"[In prison] the intimacy level is like out of control...You know how they say, 'stolen water tastes sweeter?'...'Bread eaten in the dark tastes better?'...Because you're being denied all around [in every facet of your life]...I'm still having difficulty with that...I was in prison for nineteen years...I've so institutionalized myself...PDA...public displays of affection are difficult for me...I'll do it if that's what he wants...[But] There are parts of it that are painful to me...I'm programmed to look down on that...I have to remember that I'm not in prison anymore...I'm like Mis-education of the Negro...Even if there is no back door, I will cut one for myself...I'm in prison inside myself..."

{Facilitator says, "As quiet as it's kept, you are not alone in living in a prison inside yourself...While the institutionalization you've lived under has been considerably more oppressive...to the extent that most of us here are still not wont to publically express affection for the objects of our affection, is as function of the internal prisons we still occupy...the fact that we are still not free...So, you are to be applauded for having the insight to recognize that you are not quite yet home on the way to being fully free, and the courage to be consciously engaged in the struggle to free yourself..."}

"I don't know what love is...but I had a relationship with a dude where we could look at one another and know what the other was thinking...when I came out people said, 'Do you still communicate with 'so-and-so?'...I'm thinking about it...When I first came back, I was moving guns...I was sending him money...This was my way of showing my appreciation for the affection we had...I used to counsel him to stay out of trouble...Now, I'm just working to stay out of trouble myself..."

From whom do we get permission to acknowledge what we really feel?

{Facilitator asks, "Formerly Incarcerated Brothers, I'm wondering if you know of Brothers who have lived lives of unending cycles of recidivism...i.e. going in and coming out of prison over and over again because the only place where they feel as if they can be truly who they are...that is, the only place where their love is sanctioned, or at least, is not roundly condemned, is in the joint?..."}

"They have relationships they consider real in prison...So, they go back...Out here, they feel they are no one...They have no identity...So, they go back...[For some] Just like manhood, womanhood is a state of mind...He's balancing his womanhood with his manhood..."

"You can still be an Alpha woman?...Alpha man?...I'm an Alpha feminine man..."

"I went in and I changed men's perceptions about what is a man...I had people tell me I'm still straight because I'm a Top and I told them, 'I lay down with men, so I'm gay'...If you feel like you're a Bottom, you're no less a man..."

"If you're not going to get validation from outside...You get it where you can..."

"You get permission from yourself...At the end of the day you have to deal with yourself..."

"From personal experience, if I hadn't met the men I did, I wouldn't be where I am now...I met some strong Black men...They put positive words in my ears..."

"Permission...Looking for permission from an absent father...Looking for permission from an absent mother...Finding teachers and professors I admired, but never really feeling satisfied...I came to the point where I decided it was just me [who could give me permission to acknowledge what I feel]..."

"It's really about your personhood...We have to get ourselves to a point where you say, 'I'm okay'...[and] not degrade ourselves...Part of loving yourself is about feeling okay in your own skin...The confidence you find...you may discover you need some more [when you start dealing with other Brothers]...The terms we use...'Bottom'...'Bitch'...are negative...We don't take the time to get to know the person...The human being we're dealing with [before we're flippantly dismissing each other]...I'm delighted to see so many beautiful Brothers here..."

"[People say] I must love myself [before I can love] someone else...When he said manhood is in the mind...Maybe if we discipline ourselves [such] that everyone we see, no matter how they look...We can respect them...It has freed me...[At first] I thought I was doing them a favor...[Always thinking] you are too this, or you are too that...[By respecting people as they are] We are confirming ourselves...The order is reversed...It's in loving others that I find the ability to love myself...If I can love somebody who is really fucked up, then maybe I can love myself..."

{Facilitator says, "That's an interesting notion...Taking an outside-in approach to self-acceptance, on the way to self love, by accepting and loving others for who they are..."}

How can we make it safe to be sexually present and accounted for in the Black community?

"Nations come up with symbols [to empower them]...flags...The gays have a flag...What if we came up with a flag...It symbolizes who you are...going back to the Confederacy...Once they had their flag, they never went back...So, some type of symbol..."

{Facilitator says, "There is an SGL symbol called the Bawabisi, based on West African adinkra symbols...But, a flag is a brilliant idea...we'll commission a flag from a graphic designer among us..."}

Thursday, February 9, 2012

Friday Forum Recap: FREAKY-DIKY - DeCRIMINALIZING HOMO-SEX: